Hey Chris, thanks for taking the time to chat.

Of course Frank, I appreciate you and the Rendah crew taking an interest in my work.

Tell me, when did you start getting into music and art? How did the two become connected?

In our youth, I'd be driving around with my brother and we'd always have those old-school tape packs for our car rides. I remember listening to classic recordings of raves from London, all those big parties they used to do back in the '90s. Some of these packs were classic old school tapes recorded at huge events, from the likes of; Telepathy, Mickey Finn & Aphrodite, Randall - load of mixes with Skibbadee, GQ and on. That was my route into drum and bass. After that, he got his turntables and I started borrowing his records and then before you knew it I started doing my own events and things like that in my hometown. The rest is history, it's mostly thanks to my older brother really.

How old were you when your brother was putting you on? When did the turntables and events come together?

I was about 15. I had my little dabble with all sorts of different music you do at that age, learned to play the drums, but I think just the drum & bass side of stuff was what really stuck with me - jungle as well. That was a cool time. I thank my brother for that again, he encouraged me in the right direction. If it wasn't for that, I most likely wouldn't be doing it today.

How was your art developing alongside your musical interests at that time?

I was doing art at school and I always enjoyed it. I wasn't that great at many other academic subjects like maths, so I thought if I’m going to do something for a living it might as well be something I like, which ended up being art.

My friend and I wanted to put on some parties in a small venue. We had started making our own posters and photocopying them and stuff. It was quite punky and DIY back then - just black and white on dayglo paper and collaging things together. This is during a time before we had much access to decent computers with design software or printing. We tended to make collages of edgy images from magazines, print a page out, and then photocopy them onto A3 stock, and we made posters for events like that. It was really a cool way of doing it. In fact, I should probably do that again. Sometimes you don't realize at the time how cool the stuff you’re doing is, that DIY collage style is pretty in trend again at the moment.

You can already see your self-directed roots at that time.

That was the moment for me when I realized the importance of self-reliance for myself. I see promoters to this day who always struggle with launching their events on time because they're liaising with an artwork guy and it's going back through various changes, then back to an agent - which can add days onto the launch. There’s so much dependence on other people that it can lead to significant delays in the process. Whereas if you're doing it all yourself, you’re ready when you are. I like that independence.

How was the music scene there? Were you exposed to much live drum and bass?

I was in a city called Lancaster, which is in the Northwest of the UK. It's a couple of hours from where I am now in Leeds and Bradford / Yorkshire. It's not the biggest city but fortunately, there were a couple of weekend events with Jungle, and Drum & Bass with a decent student crowd during term times. I felt quite lucky because it's not a massive city, it was easy to get a foothold. There were just a lot of guys who had sound systems and did free parties, and then they would be the resident DJs at the handful of underground venues at the time. After a while, those clubs got raided by police and shut down, then things got gentrified. Then I decided it was time to go somewhere else. Around those parts, you either went somewhere like Manchester, Newcastle or Leeds. That's when I ended up traveling over to the city where I am today. It’s a huge student city, so there's loads of opportunity to do stuff like that, especially with drum and bass and with many students arriving from London & Bristol which are considered as some of the home areas of DNB.

What was it that ignited your interest in Drum & Bass and taking it to the next level?

I was hugely inspired by the guys in my hometown. They were doing a regular Friday night thing, and they could just smash it themselves. When I got to Leeds, I wanted to get started on something like that myself. We got involved on the student radio; I knew a guy who knew how to rig pirate radio at the time, and that was it. We just needed to get out there.

I wasn't that inspired when I first got to Leeds in 2002, the drum & bass in Leeds at that time wasn’t the kind of stuff we liked. They had a lot of commercial nights, a lot of jump up, and a lot of pretty dated old-school DJs we just didn't want to see anymore. In terms of music we liked to hear, there wasn’t much going on besides free parties out in the sticks or house parties in the student areas. That's why we were so inspired to do our own events.

The first large scale club night I went to was actually in London. I went down to The End for one of the Renegade Hardware nights there. Seeing how enthusiastic everyone was for the sound that I wanted to play - that was a really good experience for me, going to a respected venue and seeing DJs playing darker drum and bass, the kind of stuff that we actually enjoyed playing. After that, we then tried to emulate and do that in Leeds and that was when I really got confident to push that sound and felt encouraged to do our own thing. I, with friends DLR, Ruckspin, Gusto and a bunch more DJs and MCs, started a club night & radio show within a year of being there around 2003-2004 called Central Beatz.

How did the poster arts play into your life at that time?

I started doing all the artwork for our events, and I did design work on the side as well for other people and students who started hitting me up. I kept accepting new projects without being too picky on the genre, they were doing everything from drum & bass, to psy-trance, as well as dub & reggae.

In Leeds, they have these poster barrels around the town for advertisements and before you knew it my artwork was going up on there and being seen by hundreds of students every day. I was just buzzing from seeing that. Doing it commercially for the first time and getting cash in hand for these artwork jobs was a great feeling.

That's a really cool way to get started, making a little money and then seeing it all over must have been extremely validating.

Yes, it was inspiring to see that. People wanted different styles for their shows too which was fun to experiment with. For instance, what you’d do for drum and bass is all bold and gritty, and then you would do something a bit more organic for a psy-trance event. That became my way of expanding my horizons with different styles and stuff like that. It was good to have that experience, I learned to expand my skills and styles from early on by taking on plenty of variety.

How much were you charging for posters at that time?

I probably did it for 20-30 quid, maybe some beers, a free ticket and whatever else! It wasn't big cash gains or anything because we were just enjoying living the frugal student life. A lot of the people that you did the jobs for were quite young & friendly so you didn’t want to charge them too much. It was a two-way street thing. There was no way that you could expect student clients to be paying proper professional rates.

What software were we using at that time?

It's always been Photoshop and Illustrator for me. I started messing around with that when it was at school. I've not really needed to use much else until recent years with Adobe Suite and all the other programs it contains.

When did the motion graphics stuff start becoming important in your artwork?

I'd say whenever bigger labels started doing it. Everybody else followed suit and that's when labels and other people wanted to do video content for advertising their events. When I first started to experiment I’d be using Premiere and Final Cut and all that stuff on this crackly old CRT monitor first when I was at uni, manipulating & chopping videos I’d shot on DVS handycams and other tape based mediums. I can't even imagine designing something on such a low-resolution screen now but I guess you made it work *laughs* - things have gotten a lot better.

I noticed a big shift in the demand for video when Instagram rolled out the reel format. People began to own better smartphones, and internet speeds got faster - which meant video content was a new horizon to exploit. It ties in with when people's phones started being able to download and play back video at a decent bitrate without it looking like it was made on a potato. When that feature became easily accessible through mobile apps - artists and labels wanted to use more video content. Now it’s the bread and butter of social media.

It’s interesting to see how the advance of technological capabilities correlates with the content people to see. It's come such a long way from those DIY-printer collages. Now people are doing animations on flyers on social media. Even Spotify has animations for songs. Motion graphics have become the norm as these apps have evolved, they’re expected at this point.

It all boils down to amplifying engagement. Engagement is driven by stimulation and a video image, whether it be a flyer or just a normal video of a scene or whatever. You're going to spend longer hovering over that particular post or video, and your brain as well as the algorithm will value that content more above anything, and you'll get more of that content in return. People prefer to concentrate on stuff that's compelling and pretty to look at - that's the fundamentals of the algorithm and the basic psychology behind engagement. It helps to understand this if you're trying to do an event to ensure your artwork is engaging enough to make people look at it and concentrate on it.

How do you go about making a client’s piece memorable and unique?

If they're going to allow me the time to do it, one thing I would do to make my art more memorable is to source my own photography reference for my work.

I've always been interested in photography. I entered university as a traditional painter, as somebody who drew and painted things and self-portraits and also used a bit of computers for video work. I used to develop my own film as part of my art degree, then as I spent more time I started getting into photography. At the time I thought that I could get more done and have a greater library of expression by learning how to do photography and video.

Photography was then something I would then use and then integrate it back into my digital artwork. I would buy a lot of crystals and interesting rocks and stuff like that on eBay. And then I would get my tube extension and turn my 50mm into a macro lens for the SLR camera. I would then make loads of close up pictures of crystals reflecting light from colour LED lamps, lasers and stuff like that. Then I would bring that back into the computer and overlay, mirror, and manipulate it then build the artwork on that.

It was basically taking an analog look back into digital and then a rehash of it from an original source. You can tell the difference between something where it comes from an original source as opposed to an image warehouse site like Unsplash or something like that. That’s why a lot of artwork online might seem familiar, most people pull from the same image databases. I’ve always wanted to make original artwork so I decided that I was going to make completely bespoke images of stuff that I've got in the studio. That’s my approach for making my work appear more distinct and memorable, utilizing mixed media sources and bringing it back into the digital. I didn't want to be reliant on just using online resources because I feel like that's a bit of a short corner obviously - I was surprised how many other designers at the time were cutting corners. To me it's really important to create layers & depth within your work, you can get so many cool results out of doing that.

What’s your workflow like typically for a client piece?

Typically there's a request from the artist who has the imprint and will often say they've said they want an image that looks like this, or can you make it have these colors in it. Sometimes they'll look at something I've done previously and say they’d like something similar. From there I’ll go on and do maybe five or six different interpretations of what I think they're wanting. They’ll select one they like, and it's not always the one I like but the job is to make them happy. So then I'll re-add the detail, blow it up, do it high res, make it more polished, and add some extra effects and refinements. They’ll approve the final artwork and then that's when you start making the rest of the assets. It all starts with that. That singular square canvas has to be right and then you develop the rest of your content for everything around that. It’s rare I get given total free reign to design a music based artwork - but when I do it’s great to have that opportunity.

It's important to consider starting any project you're working on at a super high resolution. Everything's broken down into layers and components because your chances are you're going to be using that potentially for printing, or using on a video. For that reason you always want to prepare your assets in a way which you're going to just expect to have to chop them up and reuse them again in something else. My process now is driven by asset management. Having fully organized folders with everything labeled and broken down. Once you've done that, you're ready to make anything from it and within any size canvas.

I feel like I receive a lot of trust from labels, maybe that's because I’ve been doing it for longer now. I certainly didn't remember it being that easy back in the day, there were always a lot of revisions - I’m not sure if that’s me improving, or labels becoming less fussy?! That's where your patience for the amount of money you were being paid gets stretched, when you’re sitting doing the 7th ‘small edit’. *laughs*

It sounds like you've got your workflow dialed in. It's not just the artwork itself when you’re working in the industry, but also all the assets in these different ways are going to be applied.

That's something that's just increased in scope now, whereas in the early days it was a singular thing such as a vinyl label, sleeve and small digital cover - you didn't even have Spotify, nor was I expected to make much in the way of social media content - it was typically just one image. Now you have to be expected to redevelop the artwork for so many other things. If you keep that in mind at the beginning, then you'll have everything laid out, ready to use again if you need to chop it up and combine it which makes everything a lot easier.

Do you feel any pressure to keep up with the latest tech in your industry? Such as AI or otherwise?

If a client finds an older image for my gallery and says, “I want you to do that” I will go and do it. I won't then go and make the AI equivalent of it, I’ll use the same process that I’ve done before. If they want me to have something where I've got to go out and photo something or make something, or if they just supply photography or video, or they want me to generate a 3D object, that's cool. I will do that for them the best I can. I'm never going to use AI as a substitute for any of my previous processes if it can be done in a real-life process.

Midjourney has proved to be a useful resource for generating textures, basic patterns or some surreal scenes that can then be collaged out or traced over for example much like you might do with a photograph. When it comes down to it I don’t view AI as a singular process. I see it as a plugin for your software, like how you would have a plugin for After Effects or a plugin for Photoshop. I see it on the same level as that. Seems like a bit of a shortcut to simply create a stand alone piece with one prompt and leave it at that. It ought to be a component in all the other elements that you piece together in order to make something detailed and coherent.

That's the way I see it personally - I don't want to rely on it in a singular fashion.

I like the analogy of using a plugin. With AI, I think it's most interesting when people like yourself use it as a tool and there's still a lot of post-production and other input that you do after it.

I'm not commenting on whether or not people should use it or not. I think that's up to them. I think it'd be a very sad world if we artists just pressed the button and then that was it. I think that's depressing in a way. I don't believe that the technology on any of these platforms is good enough (yet) to create something that looks as good or as coherent as what you would do if you were to use it as a composite, or as a material for your own creativity.

I have a lot of fun combining software and generating these glitched out bits whilst feeding images back through the process. I don't just use one bit of software, I like to bounce it between stuff. If you're doing an abstract thing, such as making a 3D object, then put it into After Effects, and then put it into a plugin, creating some 3D shapes and lighting, and then you then spit out some screenshots. You bring that back into Photoshop and then you start glitching that out, and then you put it into an app on your phone, and then that will glitch it out again, and then you feed it back in for example.

I think that's something everybody should have a shot at doing. Try not to just sit there in one singular environment or software program. It's really rewarding to transplant what you’ve drawn or edited and then add that into a different medium and continue to rework it to see what results you get.

There’s a real tinkering aspect of just playing with it, seeing all these different ways and getting unique results. At the end of the day, it's the curative factor that decides what gets developed. Through years of experience, you learn to make judgments about what looks good, and what you're looking for. Then its just a matter of bringing it to life.

What's your overall favorite style of art to make?

Generally speaking, abstract art is more my definite cup of tea. If somebody just gave me free rein to do a job, anything I wanted, it would always be like a bit of geometry and abstraction. That's where I feel happy and comfortable.

I’ve always felt that patterned stuff and more abstract designs synergize nicely with music because sound doesn't have any imagery or concrete form. It's more intuitive and non-representational, what is it that draws you to abstraction?

Abstraction is what I like the most in general. When I was in uni I wrote my dissertation on tracking abstraction as a trope from its beginnings in film media in the early 1900s. Asking questions like; where did the abstraction in contemporary art start for instance? Who were the people that really took it out from its infancy? It sort of starts properly in the 1920s with artists like Man Ray, and I was just fascinated by how there were these pioneers out there who were exploring what it is that makes an abstract image or experimenting with surreal imagery. We wonder why certain abstract work is pleasant to look at when it doesn't convey any specific meaning or message but somehow in a way, it does. I like to think that the right abstract image can convey a certain emotion or a certain feeling. It's very difficult to articulate exactly why that is.

Can you tell me about some of the clients you’ve worked with, especially those who you’ve continued to work with again and again? Is there anyone who stands out?

Charlie “Break” is someone who I really enjoy working with. I've had the privilege to do some of his albums and a lot of the stuff we do at Symmetry Recordings has gone onto be pressed onto vinyl, which is always special. Working with him and Symmetry Recordings has been a great journey so far. I've done stuff with Villem at MURKT too, he's a really nice & talented guy too. Ant TC1, whom I got to know shortly after I moved to Leeds has brought me the work with Metalheadz which he manages with Goldie, and his own label Dispatch Recordings, as well as his club night Momentum. When I think over the main core of music labels that I'm working with, it will be those guys. I've also had some look-ins from other guys who are often connected through artists on those labels as well such as doing Friske’s latest album. There's a couple of things I've got cooking, but I probably shouldn't say because he hasn't announced it yet!

One of the best things about doing music artwork is maintaining relationships and then expanding new ones because when working for a label, those labels often have a multitude of artists who have releases on them, and then they may choose to go on and do their own thing such as making their own record label. It's akin to planting lots of seeds everywhere for people to come back and work with you again in the future, which is a really rewarding process to be a part of.

I also work with Sofa Sound Bristol, run by DLR, alongside an artist from my area named Adam Menzies. He’s an incredible illustrator who does all the doodles and all the cool, wonky, cartoony artwork for the label. Then I make the video, animate it, and adjust it to all the social media sizes needed - I vectorize it, redraw it, and then make all their assets which can be used for each release and post that announces a new single for example.

That’s a great collaborative process right there. It enables you both to focus on your strengths, and that’s awesome that the label works like that.

How do you keep up with being creatively productive all the time? Is there anything that you do to keep from burnout with just keeping up the creative muscle going?

You know what? A couple of years ago, I started going swimming on the midweek. I know this is a random thing, but it works for me. There's a pool up the road from me, and they have an evening swim adult session and its goes from half past 8:00 till half past 9:00 at night. It's quite late for a swim, but that sorts me out because my body clock is in night out mode. I think if you already sat on your house all day, it doesn't do your back any good. It doesn't do your muscle condition any good. That's the way I avoid burnout in the week is having that time to go swimming and then walk the dog. Having the dog is good I can't sit in this chair for more than two hours or three hours before the dog starts barking and I need to go out and take a break for a bit. Those two things there work for me.

Sometimes you get so overwhelmed with deadlines having one day where you decide to avoid screen time can be helpful. You have to realize that you can't do it all non-stop because it's going to mess yourself up. Have one day where you're like, “Sorry, guys, I'll come back to you tomorrow with that.” I think you shouldn't be afraid to take time for yourself because otherwise, you won't come back feeling refreshed ever. You'll always be playing catch-up, man. Those things work for me. It might not be for everybody, but I have to have things that force me to stop looking at the screen. If you're struggling with burnout, get a dog. I promise you’ll benefit from it *laughs* Yeah, that's my advice and what works for me.

There might be a lot of mind energy sitting there and doing creative work, but there's no physical release. You need to have those moments. For me in particular, I don't think I would be as inspired without it.

It's nice that you connect with your physical body through swimming and walking the dog, it's good to get energy out somatically. Creative freelance work requires some sort of stress/work regulation to keep the conduit of creativity flowing. How does being a promoter play into the equation?

It keeps me on my toes. If you do promotion, you get to see what the other labels are going to be doing for their event nights. You get to see the trends that are in vogue. You see the zeitgeist changing, what's becoming more noticeable. Seeing all this supports my art-making and creativity.

You know how it is. You'll come up with a cool aesthetic for something and then give it a year and then everybody starts to gravitate towards a similar aesthetic. Then you get to that point when you need to switch it up and adjust your style. I like having that pressure because it keeps me from falling back on doing the same thing that's been done all the time. It forces you to go back and think, we need to up this design, we need to change the layout of it, because otherwise you'll just look too familiar and you'll look dated after too long. You've got to strike the balance between something recognizable and stylized to the aesthetic at the time.

At the moment everybody's steering away from busy designs and textural stuff or anything figurative. It's a lot more design-based, two-dimensional almost, maybe a couple of 3D elements

Many times we have the vision of artists being introverted and staying in their studio working on art. At the same time, the creative life requires socializing and making friendships to establish yourself. Do you feel more introverted or extroverted when it comes to your personal life? How does it relate to your art-making?

When it comes to talking about artwork and expressing myself as an artist, I am very introverted. But when it comes to music, the opposite. I'm shouting about it, literally on the microphone at events. I'm more than happy to talk to people night and day about music.

But when it comes to artwork, I'm so much more private. I don't know why, but I find it much more personal if somebody doesn't like my artwork, whereas if somebody didn't enjoy a DJ set or if they didn't like me on the mic, I wouldn’t really care. I think I can say that that's where my divide between introvert and extrovert is, whether we talk about visual art versus music. I've got a split personality man!

What have you got going on next?

We’ve got a monthly residency in Leeds with Central Beatz down at the Old Red Bus Station where we invite new & underground artists with a lot of the up and coming DJs in the area. We’ve got the summer & winter schedule sorted and that’s going to be a great time. It's excellent to have the chance to work within an independent creative space here in Leeds.

Aside from that, everybody wants to go on holiday, don’t they? Yeah, I want to go back to Thailand. Years ago I got my open-water diving certificate there, and I haven't been there since. I want to go diving, man. That's the trippiest thing you can do is go down on the water and just float about looking at the other world down there... That's crazy inspiring. Start scoping out some bright coloured coral for photography, find some cool organic forms & life within the sunlight shining down. That’d be really nice!